I have heard there is a new sound guy. Mixed reviews. Haven't been yet, gut haven't seen any discussion of this here. What does everyone think?

The sound quality is high and the mix has been decent(a little tweeking here and there as the show goes on, but at least its not ignored like it used to be) I am a poor judge for sound level, though, because I NEVER think its loud enough(never have)but these are alot louder than latter era Dead. Speaker configurations are the same as they used to be. I saw the new guy the other night when I was checking out the newer equipt., but didn't get his name, any one know who it is?

I never thinks it loud enough either.

Jimmy was plenty loud.
Bob, I couldn't hear him playing much.
Phil was a little lower than usual, but at P&F, he's often way too high.

Overall, I was pleasantly surprised after all the complaining I've read from previous shows & thought it was VERY clear.

Freedom RRRRRRRROCK?
Welllllll...turrrrn it UP, maaaaan!

Really Bucky I just listened to a tape of the first night of Boston the vocals seem burried and I couldn't hear Bob at all. Nothing was as crisp clean and sharp like it was all summer. Oh well I guess a guy can have an off night. I will have to listen for myself at MSG.

They made up for 11/18 with 11/19, Susan and Phil were turned up to where they should have been

Yeah, vocals, schmocals to me anyhow.

Susan was actually too loud, or she was getting too close to the mic, which I doubt since she's a pro & not some girl in a bar band.
I saw her step back several times right after she started to sing last night.

And yes Rosalee, Phil's summer outdoor setup is VASTLY better than his indoor theatre system. I've noticed that since 2001.

Who is the sound man for The Other Ones?

they need to turn it up! louder please.

Constant problems with Phil's mike not working in Boston, Susan's backfeed problems...what's so difficult?

Wow Bucky vocals schmocals. If there's one thing that has been a bench mark for outstanding sound at a Dead show it was the clear pristine vocals - at least when Healy was around.

and I must say this past summer the tapes sound like a record!

At the Albany show i was slightly disapointed with the sound levels.Cold rain was way too quiet.The mix is fantastic, no qualms with that at all.I kinda wish they would have broke out the relay speakers for this run.I remember Albany Dead shows being much louder and still very clear.

couldn't heat the vocals clearly at the meadowlands - barely could hear susan.

hear the vocals...

The sound for the Boston shows was terrible considering that this is 2002 and they have all these years of having great sound (Most of the time). I walked around all sections and levels of the Fleet checking out the sound. I found it very difficult to differentiate the keyboards and the individual drums. If I was on Jimmy side I could hardly hear the keyboards, though, on the keyboard side I could still hear Jimmy.

The vocals!, Damn, you should be able to hear the lyrics articulately these days. I sat behind the stage at one of the corners directly in line (50-60 feet away) from one of the speaker columns facing the back. At that distance, with no obstacles, there is NO reason not to have clear, understandable vocals. If you did not know the songs beforehand you would not know what they were singing much of the time.

As the 2nd set progressed (great set!) the sound improved a bit but the vocals still sucked the entire evening. IMHO, clearly articulated Hunter lyrics adds so much more power to that space/time experience that is a "show".

I just don't understand how the vocals can be this bad in this day and age of technology. I understand it wasn't "terrible" but after all these years of hearing great sound from this organization the current soundscape is an embarrassment from the technical point of view.

The sound of P&F shows have been fantastic over the past summer so I am guessing they have a different sound person. Anyone know for sure?

your best et for good sound is to sit at the far end oppisite the band behind the tapers.
there is 2 stacks hanging stage right and left and 1 stack hanging over the tapers, behind them you get it all.....

pugs

>>>>The sound for the Boston shows was terrible considering that this is 2002 and they have all these years of having great sound (Most of the time

Yeah, the sound was louder & better 20 years ago.
I wonder if keeping the volume down has something to do with the paranoia most cities have surrounding the dead's travelling circus coming to town?

'Wiz' is the name of the Other Ones soundman. He did the sound for the 8 Phil shows in early spring. Cotter Micheals did the Phil sound during the summer (May thru September). Night and day comparison. I hope the organization gets wind of this.

I say, Bring on Cotter Micheals. Any word on whether Jimmy is ever going to get a MIDI kit?

"your best et for good sound is to sit at the far end oppisite the band behind the tapers.
there is 2 stacks hanging stage right and left and 1 stack hanging over the tapers, behind them you get it all....."

That is where I sat the first night in Boston and the my 'complaints' remain the same. In fact, one of the worst spots were right behind the tapers since the reflections from the main stacks off the back wall mixing with the 1 stack hanging overhead combined to make it more muddy. The best sound is anywhere on the center of the floor on either side of the soundboard and towards to stage. The most comfortable (seats) place for sound, other than directly in front of a stack pointing behind the stage, is in the middle to upper levels directly in back of the hall.

Bring back Cotter for sound! The current personnel/system ain't cutting it...

Behind the stage sounds good.

Shhhhhhhhh, don't tell anyone.

'Wiz' is the name of the Other Ones soundman.

Hi Tommy! Actually, I heard that Ratdog's sound engineer is the guy at the board this time out.

I agree. Bring back Cotter.

There is no BOOOM! to the FOH sound, imo. There are also times you can hear the keyboards and times you can't (and for 2 guys to be pounding it out up there, you should always hear the keys!) There are times you can hear Weir's guitar and times you can't. Same w/ Phil. The vocals are not loud (or clear) enough at all. Yes, these are big arenas and not theaters, but they have some pretty impressive equipment and the Dead have always prided themselves on sound, so I am holding out hope that things improve for MSG.

Just my humble opinion, and I've only seen one show, but could it be less the soundman and more the equipment? Even though they're behind screens, the speakers seem to be fewer and different (boxier), and arranged in some sort of circular pattern. Not the banks of high-tech stuff we saw this summer. Maybe enough to fill small hockey rinks, but not larger ones??

The two shows I saw, Boston #2 & Hfd, both sounded very good.

Of course I was very close both times.

We'll see at MSG from the rafters......

One comment:

I couldn't hear Bob play either show except Hfd on the accoustic. The accoustic sounded fine. The electric, nada, nothing. Except, I guess on St Stephen in Boston.

bucky - I thought you were staying home and listening to PLQ discs all fall...change of heart?

Hmmm, I went to both Bostons, I can't speak to the sound on Monday night because I was in the second row center so it was loud and clear, and I could hear their voices unamplified as it were, same with the instruments, the stage amps sounded great, so did the mix . . .

Tues from the next to the last row in 301 (right, center, top) it sounded OK, the old cup the hands behind the ears trick worked well, but I agree, it wasn't loud enough up there. Vocals muddied, sounded "far away" and quite frankly it was. I started the show in the loge directly off the floor stage right, could still see everyone, sounded pretty good down there.

Let's hope they get it turned up to 11 (hell, 9 would be good) for MSG.

Hartford sound was pretty good. My biggest complaint was not enough deep PHIL - we were up high on the Phil side, so bass is probably tough up there no matter what's happening onstage. We could hear him, but we wanted to FEEL him.

Also, there were many times I was watching Jeff's hands move but couldn't tell what he was playing, that was kind of weird. I think he's pretty textural anyway... Rob definitely played clearer notes and chords that stood out.

But both guitars and all voices were pretty rock-solid, I thought, and that was key.

MSG will be loud, have no fear. Never seen ANY show there that wasn't loud, it's just gotta be that way, it's MSG dammit!

Hopefully MSG will be loud.

Sound at Albany was not very good from the keyboard side but the sound in hartford was much claerer and louder. Jimmy was quite clear as was rob and phil. Perhaps they need to turn up bobby a little. Not an expert , just what I heard. Hope I can make MSG they always perform well there as with hartford.

Yo sound guys,

Please, maybe I'm just a elderly head going deaf, but TURN IT UP FOR MSG!!! I'm cupping my ears straining to hear. I mean I'm only 45!

Hilary

Yep I agree Was cuppin my ears to hear(roanoke)n Bob was Too buried in the mix(guitar) though it seemed he wanted it that way for some reason. and I was front row almost directly in front of him At MCI So it was pretty pure stage all the way there! yipee What a blast ! but roanoke Too Where I was in rafters... could barely make out weir's Axe (guitar player here) bet cha coulda guessed. yeah Turn it up in general!! Wish they had The System I saw GD W/ in 79! like to hear jimmy W/ a little more Girth, (friends agreed) Give That man a Further! I'd LOve to hear what he could do W/ those Alembic pickups! Weeee HOOOO n Na Bit More Reverb. Anyone know what kinda speak's he's usin? Ah What Am I saying am I just trying To make him sound more like Jerr well no cus the man's got his Own ... here's to ya! I'm just strivin for perfection , sound was pretty awesome, Tunes beyond belief As Was the playing I think I was off The floor a bit at MCI ! thanks OO chris

My bad on leaving Wiz out there to dry. I hadn't realized that he declined the tour a few days before the band went out. As is now clear, Ratdogs guy is doing FOH. Now for the bitching. I sat dead center for both nights of the Spectrum, twenty feet in front of the board, the belly of the beast, or at least it should have been, and the sound still sucked. Everything everyone is saying about it is true. Everyone's vocals are mud, you can't hear Bob or Rob, and Phil is not the rolling thunder that was present during the summer. When Phil talked, with no instruments playing, I still couldn't understand him. Hopefully this discussion is getting through to some of the people who make decisions...

You'd think that after perfecting the sound for the past 30 years, indoors/outdoors, large/small they'd be able to get it right. The sound has been muddy, not loud enough and shitty seperation. The 1st set and 2nd set of the Meadowlands was like being at 2 different shows. The sounds in the 2nd set was much louder and clearer then the 1st, although still not where it should be. Usually, if the sound isn't great to begin with, I assume they're slowly tweaking it and bring up the volume level to peak at the end of the show. However, this hasn't been the case so far.

Let's hope they get it right before the tour ends!

Well, now it all makes sense. Ratdog’s soundman is doing FOH, no wonder it sounds so bad!!!
That guy is AWFUL!! One of my biggest complaints about Ratdog is their sound guy. I’ve been to several Ratdog shows this year and was disappointed in their sound quality. TOO needs to ditch this guy and get someone who knows how to mix arenas.

In Philly, I was sitting on the side of the stage and had a very good view of the speaker stacks behind the video curtains. They were set up in a semi-circle that started in front and made almost a complete circle towards that rear to give the folks behind the stage some sound. Also the subs were in a semi circle in the corner of the stage on the ground blasting right into the “boards” of the hockey rink. I was maybe 20 feet from the subs and they weren’t very loud at all. I can’t imagine that anyone in the rear of the venue heard any bass at all. Especially blasting into the boards like that, on the floor, all the bass energy was getting absorbed before it had a chance to get out and rattle any rib cages. Also the guy working the monitor board was hardly paying attention at some key points and didn’t notice Rob and Jeff switch seats. He forgot to switch on Rob’s mic several times and he had to wave at the dude until he turned it on.

The sound crew definitely deserves a big slap upside the head, at least IMHO

Band is playing great!!! TOO bad their crew is not up to par!!!

JimmyPhan420

With P&F Rob has a switch that he works himself to switch microphones when he switches seats. Why doesn't he have it with TOO. It seems that would solve the problem.

In Roanoke, A smaller venue at that, We had probably the best seats you could have in the place. Great view of the whole band and everything else that was going on and all. We was about probably 20ft from the stage on the right side. Pretty cool to see Jimmy do his finger dancing without having to strain.
But the vocals did suck a little, even were we were from. Luckily, I knew everything they were doing and could sing along with my experience.
New head wanabees where probably not too impressed. But I thought the show was really great.

The sound is terrible, awful...I've seen the Stones, McCartney, The Who (much louder than TOO), and CSNY in big arenas like MSG this year, and the sound has been stellar for all these shows. There is just no excuse for the miserably poor quality of the sound at TOO shows. They are playing ten times better than the Dead did for the last 10 years of their life, and it's being spolied by poor sound. The music is back, but it still suffers from that same miserable sound quality the Dead had. Muddy vocals, inaudible Bobby guitar, Jimmy lost in the mix....I could go on and on. Whoever is doing sound is worse than a rank amateur. I used to be a sound engineer myself, and would have been canned in three seconds if I'd mixed anything that poorly. They seriously need to find someone who is working with acts like the Stones or McCartney and bring em in. With $48 tickets and sold out shows, there's no reason not to have the best soundman they can find, not some Hack who mixes Ratdog shows at the Beacon theatre. The music demands no less, and neither should we fans!

They should hire Cotter!

More rants... At MSG I sat on the side of the stage, a little to the front. The view was good, but again the sound sucked. I was in the throw of the speakers, not 50 yards away and I had to watch Weir to hear what he was playing. The same thing with hearing Rob. Phil's bass is so low at points that it's hard to distinguish the notes that he is playing. I'm not going to even get into the vocals, becase there isn't enough room. I must say that it got somewhat better in the second set, but not near the quality level it should be. Too bad the sound isn't matching what is being played, that would almost be too good to hear.

The sound sucked, with the exception of Hartford, second set, and for me, Saturday, Philadelphia.

HEAR THAT BAND....THE SOUND SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

It's true they need to know there are problems with the sound, but I think we can do it a bit more delicately. Remember you're not talking to a computer your talking to a person. I would hope no one would be this nasty to the new engineers face. Remember he IS new...Did you walk into your new job and do it perfectly right from the first day?
Any ways I was right next to the soundboard and although it wasn't perfect and there were intermitant problems through the night. Overall I thought he did a pretty good job. I've got to think this guy has an increadibly tough job.
It's certainly not a psychedelic GD mix. I would imagine he's not that familiar with that style or that he just has too much to contend with already.

By Tommy Danscuk (Robntomd) (24.190.67.126) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 10:51 am: Edit

Why don't they have Cotter Micheals doing sound for the Other Ones. Weir is hardly in the mix. The vocals are muddy. The summer Phil & Friends tour sounded outstanding. It was the first time I remember people NOT bitching about the sound. After finding a soundman who can handle the mix, why did they take a step backwards?


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By Jared (Jaredbc) (207.106.227.5) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 11:42 am: Edit

They're playing stadiums with speakers that are meant for sporting events. THey all have shitty sound. PLQ played ampitheaters all summer specifically meant for concerts and they have great acoustics.


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By Richie Nagan (Negman) (24.190.155.158) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 12:15 pm: Edit

The speakers that are used for concerts are not the house speakers that are used for announcing sporting events, they are concert speakers that the band briongs themselves along with the board and other equipment. I would think that TOO would use the most up-to-date, state-of-the art equipment. WHo is behind the board?


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By matt (207.127.128.2) on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Has the sound been this bad? I went to Albany and did not notice, then again that venue is a little smaller. The ampitheaters are equipped better for concerts, however, the band does travel with their own equipment, so I guess if it is not that great then it would go back to the sound guy!


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By Tommy Danscuk (Robntomd) (24.190.67.126) on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 04:40 am: Edit

As far as indoor venues go, I've heard Healy have indoor arenas sound like your in a listening room. The Dead's sound definitely took a nose dive when Dan was fired and Cutler took over in 94. He did Phil's sound for the first few years, until giving up after last year's Beacon shows. People complained constantly about how muddy the vocals were, and the fact that Phil wasn't real present. The guy on the board for the Other Ones now did the sound for Phil early this year (8 shows in March/April). Cotter did sound for Phil from May until September, and it hasn't sounded that good since Healy left. Vocals were clear, all the instruments were there, and then there was PHIL!!!


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By EMF (216.179.1.120) on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 12:50 pm: Edit

The sound was fine at the shows I attended, albany and hartford.


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By matt and linda (64.91.160.59) on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 10:12 am: Edit

I like the line array of speakers that Phil used. The new sound guy doesn't seem to be setting the speakers delays right,panning is a trainwreck and EQ is crowded in some ranges and absent in others. Some basic sound reinforcement rules are being ignored. They use too much exciter and harmonizer and the mids end up sounding swept out. Almost no separation of instruments (in a band that is obviously trying for an ensemble feel)can be heard. Whoomp and shine is all you end up with,not enough fundamental,not enough of the real sound of the instrument. Too many phasing problems and comb filtering. It's all sheen and throb. Low mid and prescence range are too dominant. It's a type of soundscape-cool in its own way,but I like the sound of guitars and I want intelligible vocals. At least some of the time. It's not too much to ask at $50/ticket. If the sound we're getting is Cotter's signature schtick,I say boot him. Sorry if that seems harsh,but it's got to be about the guy behind the board and his crew. It doesn't even really sound good in front of the soundboard. I'm also a Healy fan,never cared all that much for Cutler,although he ran that JGB thing okay. I don't know exactly what it was he did, but can we let bygones be bygones,rescue Healy from whatever other cornball gig he has and let the goodness of sound return? I know this comes off as bunch of attitude,but I really do listen hard. All I'm saying is give us the good wizard back. Please.


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By matt and linda (64.91.160.59) on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 10:37 am: Edit

Okay,I should also say: Wiz,the new sound guy probably has his work cut out for him. I know I couldn't do his job. Maybe if he works at it a bit and improves we won't give him the old heave-ho and get Cotter again or resurrect Healy. It's so gratifying being an armchair quarterback..


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By Rosalee (Rosalee) (67.86.128.46) on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Hi Matt & Linda
Cotter is not doing the sound, neither is Wiz it is now Ratdog's engineer.
Cotter was the one doing the amazing Phil sound all winter.
I don't think Healy is coming back, but Cotter would be great, because I agree $50.00 is too much to spend to not be able to hear!


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By Rosalee (Rosalee) (67.86.128.46) on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Oops! That is he did sound for Phil all SUMMER!


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By matt and linda (64.91.163.13) on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 03:29 pm: Edit

My garble on that first rant. Meant to say(having read posts about it only...not a Ratdog head,I have no clue as to who current sound folk are. Thanks for the steer) that whoever was the soundguy on PLQ summer tour, he should replace the current one. This Wiz-what if any shows was he at the helm of? I quit hanging near the board in '93 or so. One thing Healy was good about was answering questions. Lucid ones,anyway. Saw him enlighten a lot of people. I remember a GD show with Hornsby where the side fill was all piano. We wrote a note at half time explaining what we heard,and saw it delivered. He gave us a thumbs-up and the next set just EXPLODED in that section. That's a good board,one that anyone in the audience can get some input on. Everybody's ears have got to be better than any one person's. It's a huge job. My hat's off to those folk who can do it well.


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By Uncle John (66.108.144.45) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 07:29 am: Edit

The sound this tour is the worst I can remember in recent history. The sounds is really muddy, not loud enough and poor seperation. It is a huge disappointment. Considering the sound for PLQ, Mule, etc...has never been better, to come to a show and hear this, is let down.

Let's hope they can get it right by tonight!


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By CARL SALKIN (216.89.78.178) on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 10:17 am: Edit

I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE WITH MOST OF YOU FOLKS IN THAT THE SOUND IS NOT WHAT WE EXPECT FROM THE DEAD
THAT DUDE COTTER HAD THE SOUND THIS SUMMER WITH PHIL & FR. AS GOOD OR BETTER THEN ANYTHING I HAVE HEARD SINCE HEALY. WHY NOT STICK WITH A SURE THING....IT TAKES A LOT OF TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY TO SUPPORT THE DEAD....THEY OWE US THE BEST POSSIBLE FIDELITY....GOD ONLY KNOWS WHAT THEY PAID FOR THE BOARD.....WHY NOT PUT A REAL PRO BEHIND IT....NOT TRYING TO BE NASTY TO THE CURRENT GUY BUT SHIT...HE HAD HIS SHOT............
GET COTTER BACK IN THE MIX FOR THE REST OF THIS TOUR AND FOR NEXT SUMMER TOO.

By morphit (Morphit) (206.165.125.190) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 04:51 am: Edit

seems like a smaller ensemble (P&F) will have better separation, anyway. Less stuff to separate, roles are clear.

Something like TOO has got to be murder to try to get a mix that will make everyone happy all the time. Should you go for a traditional bluesy crispness or a psychedelic wash...

Plus, one of the few places that seemed to me like the sound was crappy historically has been the Spectrum. Conversely, sure would love to hear TOO in Hampton, where the sound at dead shows was always superb.

Also, lots of it depends where you sit. The board guy hears what he hears in the middle of the place. How it sounds in section 600 on the wing is another matter.


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By matt and linda (64.91.163.53) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 06:34 am: Edit

I agree with most of that,morphit. Especially the part about location determining the sound you get. Some consistency in the hall has to happen anyway though and that's often the difference between average and great sound companies and engineers. The smaller size of band being a factor in separation? I think that other aspects of electronic sound so compromise that notion that it isn't very compelling out of context. The Ramones were a small band. I didn't hear much separation there...but I do find it easier to mix fewer instruments,open mics especially. I know what you mean. Seems like what we are both arriving at is that a bigger band only increases the need for better separation. The current mud is a certain type of sound and hey, smash it all up together in Big Mono once in a while. I like that too,just not all the time and not as a default. So many of the chorus and phasing and reverb effects that we love require stereo imaging to really come off. Crispness or wash? Good question. I want both, alternately. We are a demanding bunch. I'm glad to hear people crack that whip on this issue. Don't let them off the hook! Better sound NOW!


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By morphit (Morphit) (206.165.125.177) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 09:43 am: Edit

reminds me of Mahler.

Used to think I couldn't stand Mahler, because it always sounded loud and muddy whenever I heard a recording. Then the Conductor of the (Cleveland?) Symphony was on public radio one day, and talked about how you really have to try to get the instruments separated so that you can hear the multiple melodies that intertwine in Mahler's music. If played without dare I say boot camp discipline coming from the conductor (takes a goddamn boot camp to get them stinkin' violins to play within bounds), Mahler sounds like a big wash. When played correctly, it sounds like Teleman on acid.


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By Peter Hack (Mphack1) (24.168.27.225) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 02:01 pm: Edit

The sound is terrible, awful...I've seen the Stones, McCartney, The Who (much louder than TOO), and CSNY in big arenas like MSG this year, and the sound has been stellar for all these shows. There is just no excuse for the miserably poor quality of the sound at TOO shows. They are playing ten times better than anything the Dead did for the last 10 years of their life, and it's being spolied by poor sound. The music is back, but it still suffers from that same miserable sound quality the Dead had. Muddy vocals, inaudible Bobby guitar, Jimmy lost in the mix....I could go on and on. Whoever is doing sound is worse than a rank amateur. I used to be a sound engineer myself, and would have been canned in three seconds if I'd mixed anything that poorly. They seriously need to find someone who is working with acts like the Stones or McCartney and bring em in. With $48 tickets and sold out shows, there's no reason not to have the best soundman they can find, not some Hack who mixes Ratdog shows at the Beacon theatre. The music demands no less, and neither should we fans!


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By Tee Zee (Ztorin) (24.61.161.4) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 02:29 pm: Edit

The 2nd night Boston show, in my opinion, could have been much better. The whole show just sounded very echo-y. Very bassy and hollow, not crystal clear at all. Couldn't tell the bass drums from the bass guitar. Vocals I guess were ok, but again, nothing was nearly as loud as they could have been. I could hear people talking all around me at normal conversation levels. Didn't the DEAD basically lay the groundwork for amazing sound quality? I would have thought that 30 years later, it would only sound better and better. I agree that they are playing very well, and it's being lost on the sound.


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By matt and linda (64.91.162.80) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Teleman, which sounds like Bach on 'shrooms. Right there with the image. That's why we follow some bass player around. He just won't stay in his cage.


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By DACALA (152.163.189.169) on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 08:14 pm: Edit

aFTER MANY YEARS AND MANY RECENT DISCUSSIONS, tHERE ARE SOOOO MANY VARIABLES TO ONES INTERPRETATION OF THE OVERALL SOUND. bOTTTOM LINE YOU NEED TO BE DIRECTLY OPPOSITE THE STAGE LOOKING RIGHT AT THE BAND FOR THE PREMIUM sq. tHAT'S IT. tHESE PEOPLE HAVE THE BEST OF THE BEST AND ENOUGH OF THE CRITICS. kEEP ON ROCK'N IN THE FREE WORLD


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By greg (68.18.80.161) on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 08:31 am: Edit

Peter, You must be joking?

"They are playing ten times better than anything the Dead did for the last 10 years of their life, and it's being spolied by poor sound"

That statement is not correct. You obviously did not see the shows in 92-94 especially the richfields, deer creeks, Memphis, Miami, Orlando, Landover, and louisville runs.

The sound for the "dead" or remaining members took a huge nose dive mostly due to the change in equipment. The otherones are only using a fraction of supporting amps and equipment the dead used.

You guys have got to stop comparing phil, and TOO to the dead. They can not be compared. It's like comparing Phish to Air Supply or Steak to Tofu.

They are not the best of the best dacala, they are what's left and are trying. That's about all they can do these days. I feel very fortunate to have witnessed the dead and jerry band, they saved my life.

>You guys have got to stop comparing phil, and TOO to the dead. They can not be compared. It's like comparing Phish to Air Supply or Steak to Tofu.

PLQ have been consistenly better than MOST GD shows after '92, both in terms of performance and sound. Thought GD sound took a large nosedive starting in '92. FOB tapes from Nassau are all the proof I needed. Got copies from folks IN MY ROW the 2 nights I went and they confirmed my initial impression of "Wow, there is absolutely no punch to this sound at all." That, coupled with Jerry's 'quasi-acoustic' tone, made for some major disappoinments, which I haven't encountered since (except for Ratdog's wild inconsistencies in peformance and the puzzling fact that Bob's acoustic is often louder than his electric).

Here's my enthusiastic vote to get Cotter to do sound for The Other Ones!

Hey, Tommy D., good to see you around! Gotta get in touch with you, dude, it's been a lifetime! To see you with kids and all, wow, long strange trip indeed! Couldn't agree more with the sentiments expressed earlier about Healy, Cutler, Cotter, and now.

I was a taper for many many years, in fact, as Tommy can attest, ran Cotter's D-5 a few times!

Healy was an adventure-seeker, in life and in hs mix. His mix was always on the cutting edge of what the system he was mixing could dole out. As great as this could be, it had it's down side. There were many spectacular failures, complete meltdowns even, or wild variations in mix depending on where you were in the venue. For years, I'd get impressions from friends who were only seeing a show or 2 a year: "I can't hear Brent" - "Oh, you were on the left side of stage?" I'd say almost by instinct. Healy ran a true stereo mix. It was only fully appreciated within a small distance from the soundboard itself. Probably the most transcendant experience was the first time he used the rear speakers, hearing it from the tapers section, dead centered on all 4 speakers - and it was 10/9/89! Then Healy got fast and loose with life and money spent, and imploded for all those reasons. Too bad.

Cutler comes along and he TAKES NO CHANCES. The mix is run well below the potential of the system. Sure, it sounds decent, and there are few variations from different vantage points, but it is just that, muddy, bland, but even, like a turned up am radio, mono for the most part. Cutler perpetuates this philosophy when mixing Phil in 200/2001.

Then,in the fall of 01, one meltdown after another at Chicago, St Louis, Louisville, etc., Phil has "had it" and brings in Cotter, who was doing sound for Tricksters and DSO (I leave out Mr Ratdog for brevity). Wow! Phil is back! So is the Healy philosophy of mixing to the limit of the system. Especially in terms of low-end POWER! I'd have to say my ultimate sound experience (well maybe #2 after the aforementioned 10/9/89) was 8/1/02, Fox Th, St Louis, 18th row dead center orchestra, empty row of seats for dancing pleasure, everyone sitting down around me bored with the long jamming, Cotter sound system full force in gorgeous theatre designed for sound, man if there is a heaven, it would be spending eternity in that show, I'd have to say!

Now it seems TOO is playing so well, it's just too bad we can't really HEAR them! Thanks to GDTS TOO and dual tour book ordering (but taking a bath $$$-wise on extra's), I was front of soundboard floor center for about 3/4 of the 12 shows I saw. For the few I wasn't, it was a horrific shock to experience the lack of volume and especially extreme low end, there is just none, NO PHIL BOMBS to be really EXPERIENCED like only Cotter, and Healy before him, could produce!

Anyway, as it was frustrating to see Phil's best year (2001 IMHO) go to waste via Cutler's sound, so do I now fret that TOO's best tours are frittered away with way below par sound. Once they realize the inevitable and bring in Cotter, they will have a new album's worth of material, half written by Jimmy! AUUUGGGGGHHHHHHHH! . . .

I believe I am correct in saying that Cotter didn't enter the scene til the second night at the Fillmore in Denver last April, 5. By Vail the sound was significantly changed. He is very very good at achieving great end results.

I heard that he was in the pit at Hartford during the break. The sound between the 1st and 2nd sets was completely different. Never found out, as no one saw him whether he exhibited any influence though.

Dewit,
I happened to be at the Phillmore shows in April. Indeed the sound of the first and the second show differed a lot. I always thought that this was due to three guitarists on stage on April 4. That sound was muddy and - to my delight - the bass was by FAR the loudest and musically the dominant instrument on stage. On April 5 the sound was just plain excellent - especially regarding that it was indoor. Those kind of venues are very quick in swallowing all bass notes. Thanks to Cotter for "not swallowing Phil".
Vail: Live sound was pretty good too. My CDs have everything BUT Phil on it - sadly.

Marc

marc

Went to the first night at the Kaiser, and I thought the sound (barring technical difficulties that have nothing to do with a sound regime change) was excellent. Jimmy especially was high in the mix, juxtaposed nicely against a GREAT sounding Phil. I should be very interested in hearing some of these TOO fall shows again.

Yeah, you HEARD Phil, but did you FEEL Phil? THAT is the telling difference!

The ULTIMATE Phil BOMB show of all time remains Spectrum Phila 4/26/83. Anyone that was THERE KNOWS! And no one to my knowledge made a DIGITAL recording that night!

Good point, Bob, good point...another one was the Saratoga show of June 84, during a second set Bertha-- he brought the wind in with his bomb!

Good point, Bob, good point...another one was the Saratoga show of June 84, during a second set Bertha-- he brought the wind in with his bomb!

how true, i love that tape for that reason!

We should start a thread entitled PHAVORITE PHIL BOMBS!!

That Saratoga 84 bomb rearranged me on a cellular level.

could part of the problem ber that these shows were held in large arenas? and not small theaters? or amphitheaters that arent surrounded in concrete?

i know that my spectrum copies of fall tour dont sound that graet. i am blaming this on the sound, and not the tapers

OK, yeah, the sound system did suck, but I'd also say there wasn't anybody taping the fall tour with the right type of mic's to overcome the problems (with 1 exception).

When Jer was still kickin', the majority of tapers had purchased equipment designed for taping from the rear of the arena, then there were the few stealth people with the Schoeps. The best mic's for taping from the rear are either Neumann or AKG shotguns.

Once Jer passed on, many GD tapers sold these setups and bought Schoeps or the newer types coming on the market (Earthworks, MBHO, MFG, etc.) These are generally geared towards up front stealth taping or at small clubs, which is what everyone was doing.

What I observed in the tapers section in the fall when I brought my D-8 for a patch really shocked and disappointed me. First of all, pretty much every taper I know with a good setup got shut out of taper tix, and they all decided to blow it off.

The tapers consisted of about 25% of the "good" mic's (Schoeps, etc.), but used as if placed up front (with x-y pickup patterns, etc).

The other 75% of the setups were of various types of 1970's-era microphones - Nakamichi and Sennheiser shotguns, Audio-technica's, Sennheiser vocal mic's, even pathetic Radio Shack stereo mics taped to a crutch, etc. How the hell did these people get taper tix and everyone I know got shut out? WTF? The strangest phenomenon I notice is these dinosaur setups are patched into expensive D/A converters and Pre-Amp's, but that's a waste if the mic's are not that great.

It also doesn't help that much to run these through post-production sound-forge processing software to try to equalize and clean up the signal - I've heard enough of these Nak and Sennheiser tapes - they still sound scratchy and harsh and annoying to my overly-sensitive ears.

And the tapes made with the expensive mic's almost sound worse cause there's so much muddy boomy echo-ness in the tape the music's inaudible.

The taper with the best setup for the sound system and location was Ira, with the AKG 568's. Those are hyper-cardioids, and AKG's have a tendancy to focus on a muddy, distant, source and zero it in, in a very balanced way. I patched out of him a few times but he was running like 15 decks so I eventually left him alone. The ones I got from his setup did sound the best of anyone's though.

I have AKG shotguns from 1989, but the threaded connections are rusty from taping in the rain a few too many times, so I get dropouts occasionally. AKG told me no one ever asked them to repair a mic - "just go buy a new one, that's what the studios do". AKG does have a newer line of shotguns with improved interlocking connectors, mmmmmm, tempting, but I don't really want to re-join the taping rat race . . .

If anyone's considering buying mic's for taping THE DEAD from the official section, the AKG's, Neumanns, or MBHO's are the top 3, IMHO.

Saw the re-formed Phish last night. THOSE guys have arena sound down like there's no tomorrow. "The Dead" could certainly take some tips from Phish's sound people. I was very impressed with the excellent sound throughout the Nassau Coliseum.
peace, Hilary

Yeah, the funny thing is, when I go to Phish, as much as I denigrate them, ALL the tapers have GREAT equipment and for the most part are well versed and seem to know what they are doing. They are also quite young to be the owners of $7,500 rigs - hmmm, maybe I'll coin a new phrase "TaperTrustaFarians". But it's quite a contrast to the mostly "goober" taper scene at TOO in the fall.

Hmmmmm - Sonic Sense has used MBHO's for sale - tempting . . . with my comments here I'll probably NEVER get a patch again . . .

any reason that the Kaiser shows sounded so much better than the rest of fall tour? i know the venue is allot smaller than other sheds but any other reason? i can't listen to any other shows besides 12-5 and 6 are heads and shoulders superior

>>any reason that the Kaiser shows sounded so much better than the rest of fall tour?

Different sound man, maybe?

Just got the 12/5 vine, and there's a total sonic meltdown at the end of the 1st set - this is TOTALLY INEXCUSABLE considering the small size of the venue and their EXTENSIVE experience playing there - I'm sorry if I'm stepping on the current soundman's toes/ego, but they've gotta go, and be replaced by someone COMPETENT! Hell, I have a friend who moved to Berkeley and is now the house soundman at the Starry Plough - hell, he has little experience at large venue sound but I KNOW he could do a better job than this - there must be TONS of hungry young soundmen out there with an ear for this music - it doesn't have to be Cotter - (but I DID enjoy his little reverb echo's on the vocals, especially the quiet parts of St Stephen - at the Vibes shows). My theory is that using the Ratdog sound people is a compromise worked out between Phil and Bobby, where Phil had to give something up for having TOO be mostly his band (I am glad to have Chimenti there - the 2 keyboard setups have always been a favorite of mine, such as late 71/early 72, and '90-'92, but hell, he is pretty much an extra wheel and they could float without him) - so the sound was it - that's too bad, I see every day at my job how politics ruins a great concept, oh, well, that's life, just like the UN . . .

Another interseting tidbit - A friend of mine in Colorado just went to Phish and brought his DAT deck seeking a patch. Well, after enduring much abuse from me about actually going to Phish, he told me that almost all the tapers were using LAPTOPS to "tape" the show, and he could barely even get a patch with a DAT deck! So they are REALLY light years ahead of the GD scene tapers. I'm sure this summer I will see 4 Nak 300's into a Radio Shack mixer into a Tascam cassette mixer being run on TDK 110 cassettes! Argh!